Why arent both so much better than .223? I have several. But a high-muzzle weapon shatters that bone into hundreds of microscopic pieces, in a way that cannot be repaired. 45 stopping power! Laboratory studies of fish have found plastics can cause harm to reproductive systems and stress the liver. I have been shooting for 50 years now. To me the rest dont count. This was not a good CC gun so I traded it for a S&W 39-2 9mm. Damage: 22. American troops in the Philippines discovered this important distinction in the late 19th century. We began clearing the location and papa was lying face up in nothing but his white-e-tieties. Therefore, the 9mm is probably the correct choice. By now, people should have realized that it is 100% personal opinion and preference. The .223 weighs in at 55 grains, while the .22 is usually 45 grains or smaller. But its a good idea to carry a backup gun, and 2 spare mags that use the same ammo. I guarantee with proper shot placement, either round will do. I was shot with a 45acp in my right leg. 9mm Luger now offers select projectiles that are, under identical testing conditions, outperforming most premium line .40 S&W and .45 Auto projectiles tested by the FBI. Because of the impracticality of training for headshots, this examination of handgun wounding relative to law enforcement use is focused upon torso wounds and the probable results. We will stand at 7 to 20 yards (your choice) and shoot each other in the chest. I like them all! Is the debate on 9mm vs. .45 (or .40) settled then? I have handgun hunted for over 25 yrs and enjoy it immensly, and also do a lot of reloading.IF a guy wants to carry a 45 or 9 or anything else and are comfortable and proficient with either, then why not? Among other things, this makes it ineffective against body armor. Let me suggest that politics might be at play. That still dont make them experts but better than the average person. Do any one you know carry just ball rounds in their handguns? Avoid contact with other people's blood and body fluids. I got it cheap and after using it and putting a few hundred rounds without any malfunction and also being very accurate. No regrets. A .50 Desert Eagle is no good if you cannot carry it and get it out and shoot it accurately and fairly quickly, no matter what the knock-down power if you were able to hit anything with it. It has never failed me and conceals extremely well. WOUND BALLISTICS - Motion and Effects of Projectiles in the I sure do love 45acp though. Id use either! I dont know if the recoil might throw me off. I owned a 9mm years ago and liked the gun, though the grip was too large for me due to the double stack magazine. You will find that when tested in this manner the 45acp will out perform the 9mm hands down. So, yes, they are looking at it with the assumption that modern 9mm JHP bullets perform very similarly to .40s&w and .45acp, and thus will move toward 9mm loadings for sidearms. After the FBI, he served as a Massachusetts Deputy Inspector Generaland is currently a deputy sheriff for Plymouth County, Massachusetts. An exit wound differs greatly from an entrance wound. Everyone should be mocking the .223 as a pea shooter. My neighbor saw that the guy was afraid of the thing and couldnt get back on target after the 1st shot due to the recoil and his flinching with every shot. Wow now this argument of 9 mm verses 45 acp is stupid. What I find more often than not is, in cases of 9mm shootings, unless its a head-shot or perfectly placed shot to the sternum, victims rarely drop where theyre shot and are often found blocks away from where the original shooting took place police actually have to trace blood droppings back to their origin to find the initial crime scene. I just had to get my 2 cents in. I know the argument for +P with lighter bullets, but I settled on these because they meet my two most important criteria for defensive ammo penetration and accuracy. Bowman, Because you are making a decision based on the fact that something (9mm) didnt work. One round goes off, and you get a failure to feed. Maximum velocity is achieved only at barrel exit, then slows during flight through the viscous median known as our environment (air). the difference between a 45 and a 9 millimeter and a couple milliseconds of reaction time, it really depends on the situation and again, personal preference. Cool story for real. Most rounds fired do not hit anyone at all. What do you think of the Shield or do you know anything about it? They will simply leave their buddy there to die (and hopefully be able to take one of us with him). Hunt! Being only 30 the 9mm argument was often a argument and war waged by my generation of officer. A 45acp will deliver more damage to a human body that a 9mm. Americans have this impression, I think, that comes from watching too many old movies, that a bullet fired from a handgun is supposed to flip the bad guys ten feet into the air, if not disintegrate them altogether and leave a smoking pair of haji sandals on the pavement where they were. By the way. Do give the Walther PPS serious consideration. Taurus 45 Elton Makin was a US marine in World War One. In September 1918 American troops had overrun the German front line, and he was sent back carrying a Several firearms in .22LR, .380ACP, 9mm, 7.62x25, 7.62 Nagant, .38/.357, 7.62x54R, .45ACP and .223. This includes victims shot by suspetcs and suspects shot by our officers. and their caregivers describe a lifetime of chronic pain, repeated surgeries years after being shot, and challenges to everyday living that come from losing parts of vital organs, like a woman who has to buy her son, We are currently looking for shooting survivors to discuss their experience and their recovery. However, the .45 would likely be stopped from penetrating but there was a 30% chance, with good shot placement its energy could stop the heart. John Michael Callahan served in law enforcement for 44 years. So I want a round that will do the trick no matter if he flinches or I do. Anything else is a simple failure to prepare. Circulatory collapse will result in significant deprivation of oxygen to the brain. I dont have the time to read it. Lets say it is winter and a large person is wearing very heavy clothing. With the continuation of the pussification of America we see so many in posotions of power making decisions that follow the continuation of that thinkinhg. Officers carried them in case their security was breached, and when the enemy was upon them, the kock down power was vital in saving their life. The 9mm travels a great deal faster than the .45, with average muzzle velocity averaging between 1100-1200 FPS. Wouldnt waste my money on it. IMHO, everyone of us is different in all ways from head to toe and mostly including the brain and fitting a handgun is different for all. With a bone thats been shot with a standard-issue caliber handgun, youll see a break, a hole in the bone, and maybe some displacement. quick defense trigger and has an extended 17rnd clip. So, the answer is simple, right? Ive seen too many people want to hunt but do not have ability to take a animals life. My feeling is that the gun for you will be as individual as you are. Just as in the case of the military, my agencies biggest determining factors for this decision were not anything to do with the performance of the rounds or the effectiveness for the safety of the officer. cause if they did there would not be so many innocent victims being injured and killed all because they couldnt hit the side of a barn with a soft ball from 5 ft. But I think the bigger point to be made is that it would not be wise to make a decision on a pistol or caliber simply because it is bigger, and therefore more manly. It should be made based on the merits and actual performance of the different calibers and/or pistols. However, caliber is at least as important and should not be ignored when choosing a weapon. Looks like a Chinese-made toy gun. If you find yourself in a legitimate self-defense scenario, you will likely not have the opportunity nor the wherewithal to take a careful and well-aimed shot at your assailant's head. I like a simple .45 +P with a lot of lead. View our Terms of Service This is pretty interesting BTW https://www.ammoland.com/2018/02/defense-against-bears-with-pistols-97-success-rate-37-incidents-by-caliber/. His analysis is paramount to someone telling me the 7mm Rem Mag will outperform the 8mm Rem Mag. It is all in the throat (Leade) and where the bullet contacts the rifling. .223 Rem in 5.56 NATO is OK. When fragmentation occurs, the permanent cavity expands rapidly and dramatically. Oh, and Sgt. Shooting light steel target that doesnt allow penetration at all vs a human body is a little bit different. He kicked in the door and she was able to disarm him ( He was lying next to the bathroom door. Massive blood loss is much more likely with deep penetration and damage to vital organs. ;p, I think someone is living in Television land, get real you might have shot one or chased a couple but routinely is in make believe land, quit lying just to talk. I have got to wonder about this Neil Clapperton quoted above. With the spine on the backside with the arteries running along it, coupled with the obesity of the fast food hoodlum, that penetration was considered more key. Now good defensive hollow point is a different story. Over time, conditions that damage the liver can lead to scarring (cirrhosis), which can lead to liver failure, a life-threatening condition. However, the round stopped just short of entering Platts heart/aorta, only penetrating his torso about six or seven inches. In combat the one thing that does count is having more capacity, whether you miss or have more threats to neutralize, more capacity is a good thing no matter how you look at it. Among other things, this The last time such a broad survey of gun ownership in America was done, long arms ruled the day and Americans were largely interested in weapons for hunting and other sporting uses. But you still want the best caliber possible, because while people are disposed to fall down when shot, not every target does. I believe the 45 ACP would scare many and they would rarely shoot to their capability. Shot placement rules. It enables struggling shooters to attain better weapon control/shot placement, and permits skilled shooters to be faster and more accurate. I read a study from an Army medic regarding one shot kills from a handgun. He was a deputy sheriff. But thats me. Just happened to recall the powerful 10 auto cartridge. I have never personally tested 9mm long range, but I have seen 45 Auto results. WebIn a perforating wound, the bullet creates an exit wound as it escapes the body. WebBlack Talon is a brand of hollow-point pistol and rifle ammunition introduced in 1991 by Winchester, primarily intended for law enforcement and personal defense use.Black Talon rounds were known for the unique construction of the bullet and its sharp petal shape after expansion following impact with tissue or other wet media. Enter https://www.police1.com/ and click OK. The Department of Defense has recently been taking a hard look at the sidearms and sidearm calibers issued to today's military personnel on the front lines. The kidneys separate this material from the blood. Plenty of gang shootings. During a dynamic gun battle with erratic movement by both officer and adversary, this requires extraordinary marksmanship or, more likely, pure luck. But the major difference is that you would have been 2 rounds away from having to reload as compared to 6 rounds in the case of a Glock 17. .45 Actually killed to individual who I shot vs the others who all but one lived. And since the FBI was the agency who failed in the first place well, why follow thier blind lead? There were 3 casings in the bathroom and a couple of more in the living room 10-12 ft away. People have lived through being nuclear bombed. Make your best shot number one. I don't know about you, but my .45's seem to be plenty accurate, certainly as precise as any of my 9mm pistols. When a lot of agencies began switching to 9mm from .45 ACP and other heavier calibers, something became very apparent: the FMJ 9mm at high velocity tended All righty then, I started with 38 caliber revolvers in the early 70s, 53 yrs later, since few people carry revolvers, capacity, I have bounced back and forth and keep ammo for both 9mm and 45. Steel BB or 0.177" lead pellet at 200 ft/s will detach part of the coloured portion (iris) of a human eye leaving what appears to be a second pupil. to a target, which ripples out as a shockwave through tissue as the bullet plows through the body, leaving a cavity in its wake. My opinion is he got shot in the living room and after he kicked the door in. First off, its important to understand what the term refers to. Note that buying a handgun for personal protection is not an abstract desire. Also, I have pretty much explained what you have just said. .40 S&W I carry 180 grain HP. Fragmentation cannot reliably be counted upon with handgun wounds because of the comparatively low velocity of handgun rounds. Im not going to begin to discuss the variables between the two calibers and cartridge designs but statistics released from DOJ shows that larger cartridges are more effective at stopping Humans per round on target. At 8yoa my dad taught me to shoot with a 1911. And It will get the job done quite handily. And I suspect it could very well be the Sig P320 as it is the epitome of modular.. Muscle memory is great thing. The 9 has more A but the M of the 45 has more than enough to overtake the 9 even the newer ones. Military ball ammo leaves some things to be desired. Witch in reality are only good enough to fight yourself to a long gun I have 2 Henry levers that shoot the same .357 having 3 weapons. The FBI agents had loaded jacketed hollow point bullets into their firearms. The debate isnt settled. I have also recorded a few single-shot kills from a .45ACP, one from as far With this in mind, we will now explore handgun wounding factors. Better get that imagination under control, tough guy! Wound-cavity analysis tells a similar story concerning the .380 ACP, with individuals shot by the round able to function seconds to minutes after being shot. Im no expert by the way but, I know that said air resistance on the nose of the bullet is NOT the predominate factor in any ballistics array. Physiologically, a highly motivated target can only be destroyed by hitting the brain or the upper spinal column. If youre being attacked or in the process of deterring an oncoming attack, fear can have an affect. Developed in the early 1960s, the .223 round was first used in Vietnam. Keep in mind, competing for government contracts is expensive, time-consuming, and maintaining an awarded contract can be a royal pain in the you-know-what! The 45s power and bullet size vs. the 9 mm Luger round was Then moved to 10mm (after the 1986 Miami shootout). We can, however, find the most destructive round we can handle and train with it regularly. Prefer a 9 mm. I would easily give credit to the Colt 45 on reliability accuracy and range, my 9mm all it really does better is shoot faster because it has a 4 lb. If youve ever spent anytime shooting steel then you would know which one will take someone off their feet quicker. Either work for me, and if I had to choose only one it would be 9mm just for the capacity. The damage is often extensive, and not just for those who die. What you provide is false true and true. You hit it dead on its not the cal thats most important its what you can do with it. I have most of the makers revolver & simi-auto, in most of the major calibers. What type of bullet is being fired? Colt Defender 3" 45 ACP; Colt Gov't 70 Series; Kimber Warrior, w/ Rail; Kimber Warrior II; Kimber Super Carry Pro; Kimber Super Carry Ultra, 45 ACP, 3" Remington 1911 R1 Enhanced 5" 45 ACP; Ruger SR1911 Commander 4 Colt Model 1903 Pocket Hammerless the is bone different muscle mass fat and other bonds in our bodies As someone just coming in your home or coming at you out of the blue. They are fine weapons and are certainly capable as a sidearm. You are up close and personal with this guy. of a gun, it flies at more than 3,200 feet per second, and is still going 1,660 feet per second after traveling 500 yards. The .357sig does have very impressive ballistics. Source: The best I heard about itcirca Desert Shieldwas that at least the guns werent beaten completely to death, badly maintained by armorers who were phoning it in, and handed out off the rack with worn-out springs and safety levers falling out, like the M1911s had been ever since after Korea. Sad. Through and through shots were the issue and the 9 just bounced of bones and exited. Out charges the male mental with a screw driver in his hand. Theres enough money saved that Obuma can skim the money from the DOD and get his pay raise, retirement increase and anything else his little heart desires. That is closet weights I can readily come up with from factory offerings. Though the patient survived and only had a small wound, he suffered extensive contusions throughout his lungs. In the technical language of ballistics engineers, the standard unit of measurement for a bullets mass is grains of metal, and depending on the manufacturer, a .7.62 can weigh in at 125 grains. Rhee explained that the more massive the projectile, the more severe the wound. Bullets can also increase the surface area that transfers energy to targets by expanding, as in the case of hollow-point rounds. The amount of energy a bullet radiates into a target is determined by a simple formula taught in high school: Its the product of one half the projectiles mass times the square of the velocity. A 4 inch Redhawk 45 colt loaded with 24 grains of H100 under a 335 grain Cast performance sledgehammer should be good against the largest carnivore Todd. Shooting another person is only done with the intention to, at the very least, incapacitate the subject to protect the physical safety of others. A round put through the central nervous system of a target is likely to be incapacitating regardless of the caliber chosen. But the modern bullets are getting better all the time! The tests resulted in the selection in 1989 of the 10mm bullet as the most effective and accurate round for FBI agents to carry. And Im not always concerned with concealing. Depends. If you throw it at someone, not so much. If its fired from a Thompson Submachine gun, its almost guaranteed to be lethal. I would go with the 38 Super + P. Now you have something to rely on. The best stopping power is a complex mix of many different factors, including how fast the round is traveling and what it does when it enters the attackers body. To make a long govt document short, the armor would likely stop a 9mm with a few bruises. Both are great bullets, but not really comparable. My department switched to +p for 45s. You need to be a little more specific. .45 caliber merely refers to the diameter of the bullet. There are a large variety of cartridges that fire b and departments. So any caliber is better than none. To each their own. I notice one parameter that seems to be ignored. According to the Federal Bureau of Investigation, Hodgkinson was armed with a rifle that shot 7.62 caliber bullets. Center Mass/head shots are guaranteed kills. .45 ACP Damage Body Shots Head Shots Sounds Firing (9mm) Firing (.45 ACP) Reloading Swapping To Rarity The Vector is a rare SMG that spawns mainly in Hatchet Cases in the Hydra Bunker and rarely in the Storm Bunker (10% chance). Its proven knowledge. Scalise, a Republican from Louisiana whose condition has been upgraded to serious, suffered broken bones, ruptured blood vessels, and shredded internal organs. Thank you Bill ! This accurately stuff doesnt make too much sense when you have a bonsai charge advancing on you and your rifle was not available. The penetration of various materials can be of great assistance in the investigation of shooting incidents. It might be bigger, but bigger isnt always better. The Smith & Wesson Model 26 is a target style revolver chambered in .45 ACP. You have renewed my faith in man. I have yet to see any really legit fair and unbiased comparison of the 9mm and 45acp calibers. Everyone talking about knock down power verses speed seems like. Your tax-deductible donation to The Trace will directly support nonprofit journalism on gun violence and its effects on our communities. While there are uninformed opinions regarding stopping power, thankfully, there is also plenty of credible research. Just came down from AK and bears and mad moose have been my biggest issue. How about a test sample of exactly the same bullet weight in a high impact L.E. You get the idea. Everywhere else, you have only a chance of incapacitating your target. That was with 6 shot revolvers or 17+1 round Glock 17s. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rwYqGmVvzQ, http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1165386, http://www.m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=&f=91, http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=34714, http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2008Intl/Roberts.pdf. According to a sweeping 2016 survey, there were, at that time, more guns in the hands of Americans than there are cars on the road. Thats funny. ammo. One of the best ammo in the market right now is Hornady Critical Dury which is 135 gr. A high-muzzle bullet, however, destroys whole areas of body. Not aim shoot. Its probably just psychological, but real evidence that the .45 is more effective. I can say with great certainty that many animals dont just simply fall over and die. I also own both my fathers series 70 .45 (very accurate, low recoil due to mass, gunsmith tuned trigger that feels like butter, and extra fat grips) And a Kahr K40 (small, easy to conceal, but has a HORRENDOUS trigger pull and snappy recoil). We need to dial back our expectations of how effective a pistol is, regardless of caliber, barring brain or spine shots. Also another fact is that my Kimber Colt 45 actually has less recoil than my 9mm with an aluminum frame when my 9mm has a full steel from. Because head shots are rare and extremely difficult, and torso hits are likewise difficult and do not result in immediate incapacitation, choosing handgun bullets for officers is a critically important task. Of course shot placement is important. Great little weapon !!! Was the 357 mag. The U.S. military collected reports of its effects on the first Viet Cong combatants to be shot with the bullet. of a 24-year-old man struck in the chest by a .40-caliber hollow-point pistol round, doctors found organ damage outside the direct path of the bullet. And speed kills barriers. Small grip,,Low recoil,,, easy conceability One size does Not fit all. Platt was killed at the end of the gunfight, but not before unleashing deadly mayhem. To everyone thats been in a shooting with a .45 Auto, and they say, Thank goodness it was a .45 because I only had to use one or two shots. Its just confirmation bias. To my way of thinking, its great as a CC gun, or that in the boot back-up. and manufacturers. How higher speed, greater mass, and more surface area increase the damage that rounds can do to human bodies. But if stopping power is your only indicator of success in battle, then I suggest a WWII 16 inch navy rifle same as the Battleship Missouri ! Yes, I will agree that air resistance is constantly at work against a bullet, thereby slowing it down as it travels toward its intended target. For almost 17 years that I carred a badge I carried a S&W 357 on a K frame. Growing up in Alaska, I have shot more than a fair share of big game. Probably not, but here is my take on the ol' 9mm vs 45 ACP debate. I seem to recall reading in Rangemaster newsletter a month or two ago an FBI paper making the FMJ case. My bottom line is to shoot what you shoot the best. 5.56 NATO in .223 Rem could result in failures. 3, both hemolymph ACP and AKP activities of P. clarkii were significantly decreased in the 30 and 50 mg/L groups compared to the control (P < 0.01).Similarly, PO activity also exhibited a significant reduction in the 30 mg/L group (P < 0.05) and the 50 mg/L group (P < 0.01), respectively.However, LZM activity showed a significant increase